Rocky Giglio (00:17):
Yeah, well, welcome everybody. Obviously you’re tuning into the Cloud N Clear podcast here from SADA. This is our cloud transformational podcast. We’ve got a fresh new year, fresh new look, and some fresh new faces on the podcast, including myself. So I think everybody here is new. Nobody’s done this before, right? I think we’re all new to this.
Mike Laramie (00:36):
I did one, but.
Rocky Giglio (00:36):
You did one? All right. Well, Mike’s the pro. Maybe you should be hosting this then, right? Well, hey guys, I’m super excited to have you both here with me. Just real quick, I’m Rocky Giglio. I am the director of Security Go-to-Market and Solutions at SADA for 2023. So we’ve got a whole bunch of new exciting offerings and stuff that the three of us are working on, some of which we’ll talk about here today. But with that, along the line with me is my little brother and definitely way more smart in the security area than I am. And this is John Giglio. John, you want to say a quick Hello?
John Giglio (01:06):
Yeah. Thanks, Rocky. Yeah, hey everybody. I’m happy to be on the show. And John Giglio. I’ve been with SADA a little over two years now, leading the security efforts. Background in both DOD military, and private sector. Building and deploying security programs at various different organizations. Moving into the cloud as well as part of that modernization, figuring out where does security fit in all those different efforts. So yeah, happy to talk about security today on the show.
Rocky Giglio (01:39):
Yeah, nice and good to have you here. And of course, always good to be working with my brother. So, excited about that. And Mike, you want to introduce yourself? Mike Laramie comes from our office as the CTO. This guy’s a rockstar when it comes to all things security. So Mike, I’ve really enjoyed getting to know you a little bit more over the last month or so here as we’ve started ramping this stuff up and excited to have you out.
Mike Laramie (01:59):
Yeah. Thanks, Rocky. Likewise. Feeling’s Mutual. Mike Laramie. As Rocky mentioned I’m associate CTO of security here in SADA’s office in the CTO, and we work kind of alongside most of the teams within SADA, both around sales engagement and also technical product guidance and evangelism for our security offerings out to the field. So happy to be here on the podcast and talking with you about 2023.
Rocky Giglio (02:26):
Thanks Mike. And to that end, 2023 is, I think it’s going to be a really interesting year. John and I were talking this morning about some of the trends, some of the things we’re seeing. Security, obviously continues to be top of mind for everyone. You go read the top CIO reports, what’s top trends in the industry? Everybody always reports security, security, security. But that brings a whole bunch of challenges, right? And I think one of the biggest things we’re going to see, I read an interesting article on Forbes where they’re talking about how the challenge of insurance coming into 2023. Whether that will begin changing this year or not, but the expectation is that these insurance agencies are going to start putting pressure on the board and/or just leaving it at the feet of these organizations, to all of our customers. So, hey, you’ve got to secure your stuff and we’re no longer going to give you insurance to cover that breach if and when it happens.
(03:19):
That’s huge. From a security perspective, I think that really puts a lot of onus on all of our customers, on us to have good programs in place, which is again, why I’m so excited about this new opportunity, this new role. There’s so much to do here and it always continues to be such an important piece of what our customers are doing. What are they doing today, tomorrow? And then around all of that, it touches every area of your business because now it’s not just, hey, there’s some tech stuff that we need to harden up here, but there’s financial impact to not doing so. And that really brings it kind of front and center for everybody we work with on a day-to-day basis. It brings it to the business units. So this is a new challenge and it’s kind of the unique thing. So with that thought of just top of mind security trends, in my mind, I think that’ll be one of the biggest areas. Just the effects that’s going to have on the decisions being made, tools and dollars spent on services, and even just internally where teams focus. I think that’s going to have a huge impact. But John, Mike, your thoughts? Top trends like that, what do you think about that industry trend there?
John Giglio (04:29):
Yeah, Mike, I’ll let you go take a stab with that one first.
Mike Laramie (04:34):
For sure. Yeah, I think that it’s spot on, especially as cyberattacks are on the rise and it’s not if but when. It doesn’t matter what size you are because automation is coming into preliminary attacks and it’s really just if you have an open attack surface, you’re going to get compromised at some point. You’re going to see A, insurance premiums continue to rise until they’re untenable. And B, insurance companies, as you mentioned, pushing the board to say, Hey, you have to do something like risk transference isn’t going to be a sustainable option anymore. You can’t just say, we’re not going to worry about that because we’re going to just going to transfer that risk over to the insurance company. So if you look at that, there was a survey released recently where 81% of companies that this company surveyed had experienced a cloud security incident and almost half of those had experienced multiple cloud security incidents within the past 12 months. So you’re going to have, I think teams making a larger goal or a larger reach into securing their Cloud Security Posture, implementing Cloud Security Posture Management solutions where they may not have been previously and just kind of saying, oh, we know what we’re doing, we’re good. No, you have to start introducing some automated tools here. John, I’ll hand it over to you to, what are your thoughts on that one?
John Giglio (05:49):
Yeah, so it is super interesting and as Rocky mentioned, we were just talking about this. So it’s something that’s been sort of changing for a while now. It’s actually been very interesting for me. I’ve kind of been tracking it pretty closely as far as what’s happening there. And I think that the insurance has the potential to have a larger impact on our industry as a whole. More so than I think any other regulation. I was telling you this morning, Rocky, like PCI, there’s certain compliance regulations like that, and they’re all just a small sort of slice of the entire world. There’s only certain people that have to comply with PCI, but everybody wants insurance.
(06:34):
Mike, to your point, everybody wants to transfer that risk and have that sort of peace of mind if something were to happen that they’ve got someone that’s going to help them cover some of that risk. And so changes to that have massive impacts just across the board for every type of company. So yeah, it’s going to be a very interesting trend, certainly to continue to track into 2023 to see what happens. I think that it’s an area where companies like SADA can certainly help to get to a point where there’s not as much risk in the organization. Various different offerings and things that we can talk more about. I’m sure we’ll mention here throughout this podcast. But yeah, I think it’s a super interesting thing to keep track of in 2023.
Rocky Giglio (07:29):
And I think it brings front and center some of the need to, Mike, you mentioned automation. There’s tools in this that are emerging around like Cloud Posture Management that’s helped highlight misconfigurations. As far as I know, if I look back through breach history and some of the reports that have come out of these major breaches, in almost every situation if not in every situation, it was some misconfiguration somewhere. I’m thinking of like data exposure, I forget what it was. It was an Azure storage resource that somebody had left open to the world and millions of customer records got exposed. And then there’s the T-Mobile breach that was a gateway that somebody just connected to their production data for testing purposes, left it sitting out there and then a hacker found it, got into their databases and dumped 108 gigs of data. This is the stuff that tends to keep coming up as the source of the breach.
(08:22):
It’s misconfiguration. Last year, John, you and I were talking at a customer event about shifting left, and that kind of resonates with everybody. I think as you talk about security, everyone wants to do that. That we want to bring security into the front end of our development processes, into our application stacks. But where I’m seeing the challenge is how do you do that? So one of the things we’ve been talking about is kind of this security confidence program. Wrapped around that is really all of the offerings that we have with inside SADA security practice. Stuff that you guys have already been working on with customers. But just with those thoughts in mind, Mike, John, what do you guys think is the first thing for a customer if you’re thinking, all right, 2023, insurance company’s going to drop us, what do we do?
John Giglio (09:10):
So the thing that immediately comes to mind there is an assessment. You have to know what you’ve got. You’ve got to know what your posture looks like overall. So going through everything, not zeroing in on any one area per se, but just taking a step back and looking at the security posture of the organization as a whole and understanding where you might have risks and where you should focus. What are the areas that you should put your limited resources towards? Where are the holes in the overall coverage of the organization? Is it Posture Management like we talked about? Is it something else? Zero Trust is obviously a huge buzzword right now. I’m sure it will continue to be into 2023, but taking a look at those types of strategies that could be super important. So yeah, I think starting with an assessment, understanding just where you are if you haven’t already done that is a great first step.
Rocky Giglio (10:11):
Assessment always tends to be that key. It’s that hinge piece. Where are we, where do we go, what do we focus on? And you almost hate to say it because I’ve been in this industry for almost 30 years and almost every time you say, well, it depends, right? Depends on where you are. But it does depend, right?
John Giglio (10:29):
Consulting answer 101. It depends.
Rocky Giglio (10:33):
That’s right. It depends where you are. So Mike, your thoughts, man.
Mike Laramie (10:35):
Spot on. When you think about things like the NIST cybersecurity cycle, right? Where identify is number one. You can’t protect what you don’t know you have. So I think that assessment of what is our Cloud Asset Inventory look like? Not to use a Google specific term, but they named it a little generically, but it’s a good anecdote for it. What is my Cloud Asset Inventory? What do I have within my cloud environment or cloud environments for folks running multiple organizations and then working on it? Okay, great. I have these storage buckets, I have these hosted services, I have these VMs, I have these Kubernetes clusters. What are they doing? What type of data are they processing? Where are my risk factors? And then bringing in that Posture Management around. Like where are my misconfigurations, which are still one of the leading attack vectors. So just getting an understanding of your landscape is a great first step. And then from there, going into continual detection of those things, bringing in that Cloud Security Posture Management that we’re talking about, protecting your users with that, those Zero Trust offerings, bringing in more robust log analytics. Those are the next logical steps. But I think first you have to understand where you are in that journey and what your next steps are going to be.
Rocky Giglio (11:53):
Yeah, it’s so critical to just really making the right moves is to really map out where you are. And that’s why I like the idea and I’m excited about this confidence program that we’ve built out. Just being able to say, okay, where are we and how are we going to get to a state where we really have this comfort and at least that we’re doing the right things. Nobody’s ever breach proof. That would be great if we could get there, but every time we come up with a new solution, the bad actors are out there coming up with a way around it. They’re well funded, I mean, it’s so much more money on the table when you think about these, what are they, encryption schemes. Sorry, ransomware. There we go. There’s the term. That adds a financial component. Now they’re incented to go and find a way around your tools and your platforms and really get paid to do what they’re doing.
(12:45):
So that has really changed the game. Obviously we all know that it’s been happening for a long time now, but it really brings front and center the importance of understanding where you are and what you need to be focused on. Kind of to that end, think about people, process, tools. So if I’m people first, where are my people? Where are they at? I think one of the challenges that a lot of our customers face is in the people side, the talent pool is small and it’s hard to get. And if you do get someone on board, turnover is high as well. We see that just in the consulting industry, finding the right people takes a long time. So we’ve built out a really stellar team, which is hard to do, and so being able to bring those to bear for our customers is huge. What do you guys see as some of the difficulties in the people side of the people, processes, and tools?
Mike Laramie (13:36):
For me, that’s one of the most astonishing statistics that I’ve seen in the past couple years of doing research on this is that, I believe it’s since 2019, there’s been a near zero unemployment rate in cybersecurity. There just aren’t enough people to fill the jobs that are needed. So I think one of the things that we’ll see in the coming years, A, the need for more automation and speaking from a maturity model we’re talking about, step one is identification, implementing some sort of Posture Management to watch what’s happening. But going back to your conversation around shifting left, bringing those procedures and policies in place earlier in the development and deployment life cycle, so those misconfigurations never get deployed, let alone detected, will make your security team’s job so much easier. The earlier you can catch a misconfiguration, the less effort it takes to remediate that configuration. NIST did a study where it was up to 30 times the amount of effort to fix a misconfiguration in production versus catching it in design.
(14:40):
So just think about that as a force multiplier. If you can implement these infrastructures, code and policies, code procedures, and start developing security scanning earlier in your software development life cycle so you’re not releasing vulnerable software packages into the wild or into production, you can really enhance your team’s capabilities and do more with less, effectively. I think the next step from there is looking at vendors who are implementing … and machine learning’s a buzzword, right? ML/AI, everybody’s going to claim that they’re doing it in their product. But really looking at products that are building those machine learning models out so that you don’t have to sit there and kind of guess what the next attack looks like or what rules do I need to write this Friday? Something that learns the environment or adopts itself and it updates itself as it sees changes in the environment to make your alerts more efficient and reduce the fatigue on your existing security teams so that you don’t suffer burnout. They don’t want to leave because they can’t handle the amount of noise that’s being generated by the systems in place. I think that’s really going to be something we’re going to see our customers and prospects really want to adopt this year as well.
Rocky Giglio (15:54):
Yeah, automation is so huge in just being able to provide that relief, but also just deal with that personnel shortage. I mean, 0% is unheard of in this industry, let alone any other. Yeah, you don’t have a choice. You’ve got to be thinking about how do I get the most out of the teams that I’ve got as well as in a 2023 macroeconomic climate of uncertainty, who’s going to go out and hire a bunch more folks? It really does take time to step back and say, okay, wait a second. In the overall investments that I’m going to make, yes, you need people to do this, right? There has to be somebody that’s dealing with these things and handling some of these breaches or potential breaches, misconfigurations, et cetera. But that’s where partners like SADA really can come in and provide good help on an ongoing basis.
(16:45):
We’ve got a whole flex team, we call it, that ramp up, ramp down based on your needs. Doing a lot with security on our customers there, especially when it comes to shifting left, which is I think a very unique thing that SADA’s doing. Taking that code driven infrastructure principles, GitOps principles, DevOps principles, DevSecOps principles, bringing them to our customers and saying, Hey, let us help you by getting these things out of your backlog and getting them into production. John, thoughts on that? The people side of this is obviously a challenge. You’ve dealt with that firsthand, so.
John Giglio (17:17):
It remains a challenge. And I think on the people side, the biggest challenge is just the culture. So all the things that we’re talking about are great principles and practices, but there’s still so many people that aren’t used to operating that way. They’re not used to thinking about things that way. So shifting to this automated mindset of systems thinking and trying to get out of the toil is what we often refer to it as, and that that’s just a totally different way of thinking. It requires in a lot of cases, different team structures. We talk about this a lot when we talk about a security operations center. And some of the changes that are happening in that world, as far as just how the teams are made up and the focus on automation and having a team now that’s focused on just doing automation. That’s their whole job.
(18:19):
They’re not really security analysts per se, looking at events. They’re focused on how do we automate some of these things away? So more of a code first focus, like a developer mindset. And so it’s just a different way of thinking about it. And I think from the people perspective, I think that’s a big challenge for the security industry as a whole, is to shift towards that new mindset and that different culture. That’s where I think, again, you guys touched on this too, that’s where we can help. That’s where you can look to manage services to give you that example to show you, okay, this is how this looks in the real world. This is how this looks in my organization. And even if you don’t do it forever, you at least get started off on the right foot and you have somebody going to show you, okay, this is what it looks like to operate this way.
Rocky Giglio (19:17):
Yeah, that’s huge. The culture thing is such a challenge and we’ve seen that. Mike, I’m sure you’ve seen it as well over and over and over again. You go to customer, yeah, we’re trying to do this, we’re trying to do this, but people just don’t operate that way or they just haven’t traditionally, especially in the security space. Your typical IT admin or your typical security analyst, we’re used to looking at tools, doing a deployment through an interface somewhere, and that just means a shift in the way we’ve been working.
(19:47):
And so yeah, John, not to keep harping on the flex services thing, but I’m so excited about it because we can just plug in and start doing it and start operating that way, and that helps get the momentum going and that’s the benefit. We all talk about Agile this, Agile that, but there is real benefit in getting that momentum going and shifting into those practices. Because the better we get at that practice, the faster we’re going to go, in this case, the more secure we’re also going to be, the more confident we can be in our security posture. If from day one we’ve been thinking about security in the way we do code and the way we do these deployments and the way we build and operate and log and test, et cetera. Which actually that brings up a whole nother thing. Go ahead, Mike.
Mike Laramie (20:28):
That’s a good point. For leaders who may be listening to this, they’re like, oh God, we have to change our entire development paradigm or our security process or all these things and there’s a zero unemployment rate, so where am I going to hire people to do this? Your existing teams want to learn this stuff. This is a huge upskill moment for the industry, and when you have teams available, whether it’s SADA, whether it’s somebody else available to come in and kind of teach these practices and get people into the foundations, it’s like a flywheel. People fear what they don’t understand, and I’ll be honest with you, the first time I had to work with Terraform, I was terrified. Yeah, that’s witty. Pun, not intended. But it’s one of those things where it’s like once you learn how to do it and you see how easy it…
(21:23):
Like, I don’t need this. I have my bash scripts or we use Puppet, or we have all of these configuration management tools in place that become this unwieldy beast that is hard to change. But once you start learning about how to simplify those and use easier processes and bring those configuration and scanning tools earlier in as opposed to waiting for development to throw something over the fence and security to say, no, we can’t do this. Get those teams working together, get them understanding each other’s goals and objectives and how to achieve those, and then get the teams upskilled on both sides on how to leverage those tools. You’re going to see such a faster rate of delivery for new services, for future enhancements. It’s going to be a boon for the business across the board if you can get these teams working and you can bring in a transformation or managed services or a consultancy team like our flex services to upskill those teams and get them working in that method and then eventually get them self-sustaining once the flywheel is kicked over.
Rocky Giglio (22:27):
And that is the beauty of that service. I think he even built it out month to month. So it’s not, “Hey, you’re in here, sign a 12-year deal” and then our guys are going to do security for you from now on or whatever facet of infrastructure and operations that they’re doing. But rather, “Hey, let us come in alongside you. Let us teach you.” And I think that’s key, really through all of our service offerings, is let us help you learn how to do this. And I can say that with confidence because my brother owns all that, and so it’s on him to make sure it happens. But I know it does.
John Giglio (22:58):
I was going to say. I was going to reiterate anyways. Yeah, we do that. We do that all the time. We talk about that all the time. Teach a man to fish. It’s much more valuable in the long run. We never want to just come in and do something and wash our hands and move on. We want to work alongside of our customers and anybody that we work with to always be teaching them, whether that’s over the shoulder or actual formal sit down trainings. I’ve done those myself, even outside of security. Got into an engagement and they wanted to know more about Terraform and GitHub and it was like, ok, well let’s talk about Terraform and GitHub for an hour. And we did that as part of the engagement. So we always want to take that approach in our services,
Rocky Giglio (23:42):
And that’s the stuff that gets you more comfortable, right? Mike, to your point, how you got a team that probably wants to do this, but they haven’t yet had a chance to do it. They’re bogged down with the stuff they’ve got to do day-to-day anyway. I’m thinking about the number of tickets that some of these things produce, just the alerts. Taking the time to go clean that up, let alone, now I’m going to learn how to do some Terraform code to implement policy as code going forward or whatever it is. So those are definitely big challenges in the year ahead of us.
(24:14):
That really does lead right into the whole process side of things. It’s already come up a bunch, bringing in automation. Well, you don’t just bring in automation. You need to have specific policies that you’re building against. You need to have processes that you’re trying to enforce. Just automating… What’s the old adage with coffee? I drink a lot of coffee, I got my coffee cup. You’ve seen it on the camera here a few times already. Coffee helps me do stupid things faster. We want to avoid that. So Mike, John, thoughts on that? And just as you start thinking about automation, which you should be, there’s the importance of the process around that.
Mike Laramie (24:55):
Quick byline before I’ll toss it over to you, John, but I always had this mantra. It seems simple, but people don’t really think about it, but you can’t automate processes you don’t fully have documented. Crap in, crap out. If you don’t have what your desired end state is, how to achieve that end state, and where that end state’s going to be mapped out, it’s really hard to automate that. If you’re just automating, here’s a VM, right? But you’re not automating any of the controls around it. You might as well have not even automated it. Same way you can’t protect that which you don’t know you have, you can’t automate that which you don’t understand. Really, to me, that’s the core component is you need to have an understanding of what your policies and what your goals are before you start down the automation journey.
Rocky Giglio (25:44):
And that’s one of those areas where I think a lot of people get scared too, because you think, oh, I got to have all this documented. And you think documentation, I’ll never get that done, or if I do get it done, it’s out of date. I don’t think that’s really what you mean there. It’s more…
Mike Laramie (25:57):
You don’t need a full like SOP, you just need to understand, Hey, I don’t want open firewall rules. Okay, cool. We can do that real quick, right?
Rocky Giglio (26:04):
Yeah. And now you’ve got a policy that you can have and measure against. So if you’re talking about something like Cloud Security Posture Management. Great, you got this tool that’s going to go out and do all the scanning and give you a whole bunch of stuff to go work on. Which ones do you care about? Well, let’s start by defining that, right? The obvious ones. We don’t want open firewall ports that go to into production for no reason. We don’t want open access to all our storage buckets and so on and so forth. John, thoughts on that?
John Giglio (26:32):
Yeah, no, I was just thinking about the saying of coffee helps me do dumb things faster. Not that I’ve ever done this before, but scripting and automating things can definitely break things a lot faster. Again, not that I’ve ever broken anything with a script.
Rocky Giglio (26:54):
Like taking a bank down because you scripted out the deployments of other VLANs and then, oops, forgot something.
John Giglio (26:59):
No, never done anything like that. But yeah, I mean, thinking about those things. So you mentioned process, right? That’s kind of step two is you have to think about the impacts of the automations as well and you have to have those checks and balances in place because you can fix a whole lot of stuff really fast with automated things, but you can also break a lot of things really, really fast with automation. So there’s a whole bunch of baby stuffs and things that you can do in between. I think there’s some things that come to mind when you say automation in the security world. People kind of think a lot of times about automated response, and that can be really scary when you think about, okay, what if I lock out my CEO and they didn’t actually do anything wrong, it was a false positive or something. That looks really bad on the security team when you impact your business by some sort of automation that was put in place with great intentions to protect the organization.
(28:07):
But there’s a whole bunch of other stuff that you can do with automation before you get to the point where you’re taking action. So in terms of that event or that the thing that you saw that you needed to take some action on, you can bring in a whole bunch of context with automation that can help your humans make better decisions faster. So it doesn’t have to go all the way to full event happens, I lock out my CEO, right? You don’t have to go there, but you can give your analyst that’s going to look at that event a whole bunch more information about it by doing automated things like going to virus total or go query some other system somewhere and take the data that you have about what was the endpoint involved, what was the identity involved. You Can do those types of things with automation before you get to the full locking people out stage.
Rocky Giglio (29:04):
And bringing it back around to where we started, that’s the importance of a program around security. Not just, okay, I did an assessment grade, I got a bunch of stuff I got to go fix now. Well, what’s next, and how do I fix those? And so inside of our confidence program is really that idea of let’s start understanding where you are and then start helping you make this migration of left, and I’m doing left on the screen. I hope it shows up that way in the video. I just realized it might be backwards. But if you’re tuning in, imagine that going left. That’s all. And that’s the goal here with our security practice. We want to be able to help our customers understand where they are, bring the right resources to help fill in the gaps. If you’re short staffed like everyone else in this space, no worries, right?
(29:54):
We’ve got partners that can help with things like managed SOCKS. We’ve got obviously our flex team that we’ve talked about here a couple times already today. There’s professional services to help with things like deploying Cloud Security Posture Management, teaching Terraform and automation and on and on the list goes. I don’t want to just go into solution pasta here, but there is a lot that we can do. And I’m excited to have you two guys side by side here as we get going into 2023. And this will definitely not be the first and last episode of security on Cloud N Clear, but we’ll have a lot more conversation around what we’re doing, what we’re seeing from customers. So Mike, John, final thoughts as we wrap up today’s show?
Mike Laramie (30:36):
I think that that’s a great summary. I think that I’m excited to continue the series with you. I’m excited to see you take the mantle of hosting this on and happy to help with any future episodes that may be coming up. In parallel, we also have our technical empowerment series where we’ll take kind of a deeper dive into more of the technical aspects of some of the things that we talked about on this show alongside a few other topics that we’ll be hoping to get published out. So if you haven’t checked out any of our prior technical empowerment series, highly recommend that you check that out. You’ll find a link to it in the show notes or if you subscribe to the SADA channels.
Rocky Giglio (31:13):
And then along with that, the e-book. E-book is coming.
Mike Laramie (31:17):
Yeah, the e-book. That’s right.
Rocky Giglio (31:18):
I know we’re going back and forth on the final stages there, so that’ll be out shortly as well. Just wrapping around all of this stuff we’ve been talking about today and a whole bunch more. So John, final thoughts from you?
John Giglio (31:28):
My final thoughts are security is a big word. I think that’s kind of a theme that we sort of joke about this internally. One of our other CTO, he and I go back on this all the time, but you say security, there’s a lot that goes into it. Yeah, absolutely. It’s a huge area. It’s ever expanding, so we are here to help. Security is not going away anytime soon. And if you need assistance, like a security assessment is a great way to get started. Figure out those areas where you may have some risks. So yeah, happy to help out anybody and everybody and always happy to chat about security. Thanks guys.
Rocky Giglio (32:16):
Nice. Well thank you both for joining me today. This has been super fun and I can’t wait to get this year kicked off, man. So let’s go 2023 and make all the things super secure.
John Giglio (32:27):
Sounds good.
Rocky Giglio (32:28):
Love it. Thanks guys. I love it. Appreciate your time.
Mike Laramie (32:30):
Absolutely. Thank you.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
Thank you for listening to Cloud N Clear. Check the show notes for links to this week’s topics, and don’t forget to connect with us on Twitter, @CloudNClear, and our website SADA.com. Be sure to rate and review the show on your favorite podcast app.
